Hester Bankrupt Trial

In 2019, I visited in the National Archive to take a copy of the Hester bankruptcy trial (among other things). After this time I transcribed the trial which is quite interesting. Do you think they believed Mr HESTER? This was his second bankruptcy. The first being in Hemel Hempstead. I include my transcription so you can easily understand what was said. It might be a bit long, but enjoy.

IMAGES ABOUT THE OFFICIAL shorthand writer

EXAMINATION 6th June 1905
Examined by Mr Chapman
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Q 1 – You were formerly a builder at Boxmoor were you not?
A – Yes
Q 2 – I think after that you were a land agent at Hemel Hempstead
A – Yes
Q 3 – Did you continue building
A – Yes sir in the same district
Q 4 – That was from 1891 to 1900
A – Yes
Q 5 – You then went bankrupt in St Albans Court
A – Yes
Q 6 – Your debts were very small, £53 apparently
A – Yes due to an action
Q 7 – Why did you not pay your debts
A – It went in law costs, there was a long action which went up to the court of appeal
Q 8 – Your debts were only £53
A – That was the last thing the expences [sic] and the law costs were only £53 every thing else was squared up and there was £53 over
Q 9 – What were you doing after that
A – I stayed at Hemel Hempstead for 6 months or a year and then I went to Southend
Q 10 – Carrying on the same business there
A – Yes
Q 11 – A land and estate agent
A – Yes
Q 12 – And carpenter and builder

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A – Carpenter
Q 13 – And also dealing in house property
A – Not much at southend a little
Q 14 – When did you just begin to buy land at Canvey Island
A – 1900 or 1901
Q 15 – 1899 was it not
A – Yes somewhere about it
Q 16 – What capital had you then
A – When I started at Canvey Island there was about £2000 in one thing and another securities and other things
Q 17 – What were the securities
A – It would be in house property and land and interest in it
Q 18 – You mean to say you sold your securities and realised £2000 for them since
A – I cannot say exact by how much I have realised on them, I may have had more from all I know I cannot tell you what it was. I cannot tell the amount I have not thought of it.
Q 19 – Have they not been realised
A – Most of them
Q 20 – Some part of your estate now consists of property that you had before you began buying land at Canvey Island
A – Yes one item £450
Q 21 – That is all
A – Yes
Q22/Q23 – The rest of your property you have realised for cash
A – Yes I believe so
Q 24 – Is it a fact
A – Yes I have sold them and realised money

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Q 25 – I suppose when you began to buy land at Canvey Island you had to borrow money for the purpose of buying it?
A – Not at first
Q 26 – How much did you buy
A – The first section – the first lot I think was £300 or £400 worth
Q 27 – What amount of land did that represent
A – I could not tell you, the first contract was for £3000. The first contract at Canvey Island.
Q 28 – What amount of acreage did that represent.
A – about 36 acres I should think
Q 29 The Registrar : Was this at Canvey Island
A – At Canvey Island – yes
Q 30 – The Official Receiver : Do I understand you to say that you did not carry out the contract that you took up part of it.
A – I took it up in sections that was part of the contract to take it up in sections as I wanted it
Q 31 – According to your means
A – Yes as the money came in
Q 32 – Did you take up each section, lay it out and develop it
A – The roads were generally made, and the plots pegged out the land was cleared and so we went on from one estate to another
Q 33 – How much have you cleared in this way

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A – I cannot say the number of acres
Q 34 – How much should you think
A – Oh 400 or 500 or 600 acres it may amount it
Q 35 – That means several subsequent contracts afterwards
A – Yes several contracts afterwards
Q 36 – Have you any interest in those houses and properties which have been cleared as you call it. Did you retain any charge or anything of that kind – are they lease hold properties
A – Some are leasehold and some are in the estate now in the official receivers hands most of it is sold right out
Q 37 – How much of it is sold right out. Would your books shew [sic] those sales
A – The books would shew [sic] the number of plots sold, the estate book
Q 38 – And also the amount you got for them
A – And also the amount I got for them yes, that is to say it shews what the plots were knocked down for and the estate book will give the names and addresses of the person purchasing and what they paid – my estate book will not shew the amount that was paid to the various solicitors

Q 39 Yes I suppose they are mostly mortgaged
A – Yes various sums would represent money that I had on first deposit they paid me

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The first deposit paid, and the rest of the money has been realised with the exception of £3000 or £4000 by the various solicitors and in their account it shews the amounts realised from the various purchasers before the land was conveyed to them
Q 40 – I take it that these monies would be entered in your own books would they not
A – No we have never had a clear report from one solicitor yet as to how much money the various customers have paid individually on each estate, they would say they received £400 or £500 but they would not say whether it was Jones Smith or Robinson or whatever it was who might have paid
Q 41 – You mean to say you had one solicitor acting in respect of each estate for you
A – Not always, there might be three or four solicitors acting in various estates because the estate was chopped up into various sections
Q 42 – Why would it be necessary to chop up the solicitors too
A – It may be that money was advanced on those deeds
Q 43 – You mean to say you would employ the mortgagee’s solicitor
A – As a rule the mortgagee’s solicitor would be employed
Q 44 – Do you say that you never had proper accounts
A – I have never had full details of

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Of the accounts, I would not say proper accounts. They might shew me that £500 had been realised on an estate and they would consider that a proper account but they would not give me a detailed account to shew me how much they have received on each plot.
Q 45 – Was it necessary for your purposes at all
A – No I do not say it was
Q 46 – You have not very much to complain of in that respect
A – No it will be for the solicitors. I believe it entails a great deal of work
Q 47 – How much land have you bought altogether there
A – Well on to £100,000 I think it must be but I cannot tell you the correct figure
Q 48 – Can you give the aggregate acreage
A – No I cannot
Q 49 – Roughly
A – 2000 acres roughly
Q 50 – How much have you got rid of
A – Altogether about 600 acres I should judge
Q 51 – Than I take it that you have from 1400 to 1500 acres left
A – I should think we had that to deal with in my contracts

The Court adjourned for a short time
Q 51 – Mr Chapman : Tell me something about the Central Park Estate Company. Was that company formed by you
A – Yes
Q 52 – What was it to do
A – To buy up the Winter Gardens
Q 53 – Were the Winter Gardens built by you
A – yes
Q 54 – How much did it cost
A – I suppose that the Winter Gardens and Bungalows adjoining them and one thing and another cost me £10,000 as far as I can remember
Q 55 – Did you transfer the whole of that land to the company
A – Yes the freehold was transferred
Q 56 – Yes the freehold was transferred subject to the mortgages or was it free of mortgages
A – I conveyed free of mortgages to the company
Q 57 – You did
A – Yes
Q 58 – What did you get for it
A – I suppose it was £12,000 that was to be the purchase price of that lot taken out in shares of the company – the £6000 I took a first mortgage for from the free holder
Q 59 – You got no cash
A – I got no cash no
Q 60 – Nothing but shares
A – I took shares and a mortgage

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Q 61 – What was the capital of the company
A – £15,000
Q 62 – Was any of it paid up
A – I do not think so
Q 63 – None of it
A – I hardly understand what you mean
Q 64 – Did any body put any money into it
A – No money it was really formed to work the Winter Gardens
Q 65 – The Registrar : Had the Company any cash
A – No cash
Q 66 – The Registrar : How were they going to work
A – The Company was formed to take up the Winter Gardens and other portions of my estate and they were to work it with capital that would come in from the rents – There were various rents to come in – The Winter Gardens had an income
Q 67 – The OR : You got nothing but shares
A – I took shares
Q 68 – The OR : You told me that they took the freeholds
A – Yes
Q 69 – That the mortgages were paid off did you not say
A – Yes the mortgages were paid off – they were paid off by a load that was raised by me from the mortgages. I raised £2,500
Q 70 – Were they not mortgaged before then
A – They were mortgaged before then
Q 71 – I take it that all land that you bought by raising money by mortgage

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A – yes most of it
Q 72 – Then when this transfer to the company took place you say that the mortgages were paid off is that so
A – Quite shortly after if not at the time
Q 73 – Who found the money
A – It came through Mr Russ
Q 74 – But did you find the money or did the company find it
A – I found the money
Q 74A – Did you lend it to the company?
A – I lent it to the company
Q 75 – Did you get any security
A – I took the security of then security the whole of the winter gardens and bungalows they were freehold.
Q 76 – Did you take up the mortgage that was being paid off
A – No the freehold was originally mortgages to Mr Russ
Q 77 – What do you mean the free hold
A – the free hold was mortgaged at the time this Central Park was formed to Mr Russ. He was the mortgagee and I took the mortgage then to pay Mr Russ off which he held as security and took a mortgage on the Central Park Estate Company

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Q 78 – Do you mean you paid Mr Russ off
A – Certainly I wanted to give him security, he had a mortgage and exchanged the mortgage.
Q 79 – But had you not given a mortgage before, he was a mortgagee already
A – He had a charge on it before and then we gave the mortgage
Q 80 – You gave a mortgage, who found the money
A – There was no cash found at all
Q 81 – Then it was a mere juggle
A – It was a change over
Q 82 – Mr Russ was the mortgagee in the first instance, who was the mortgagee after this transaction
A – The Municipal Building Society
Q 83 – Was Mr Russ paid off by them
A – He was paid off by them
Q 84 – I understand Mr Russ was paid off by the Municipal Society
A – Yes
Q 85 – What was the object of this
A – Mr Russ was paid £3000 by the society
Q 86 – Why was it done
A – To pay him off
Q 87 – The Registrar : I should suggest that Mr Russ was very anxious to go
Q 88 – The Official Receiver : He wanted his money – no doubt
A – It was substituting one mortgage for another
Q 89 – What was the amount
A – I do not know how much it was

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It was certainly only a small sum, the first amount would be a small sum : then where the various buildings were raised and the money was advanced, mortgages would grow into larger ones, and then by the transfer of the mortgage it would give Mr Russ his money back to lend out on another estate
Q 90 – You mean to say that Mr Russ was not content with the security he had
A – No, not that, it was to develop the estate as more money came in from the sale of the land.
Q 91 – Then some part of Mr Russ’ property had been sold
A – Yes
Q 92 – And he had received the purchase money
A – Yes
Q 93 – His debt had been reduced
A – His debt had been reduced
Q 94 – Do you say the object of the transfer was to raise a larger sum
A – No, I do not think so; in cash only, it brought money into the estate for working
Q 95 – Cash came in anyhow
A – Yes
Q 96 – From the mortgages
A – From the mortgages There was £3000 to work with on the estate
Q 97 – It comes to this, does it not, that you received a larger sum

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Than the mortgage to Mr Russ, and you used the balance to develop the estate, is that it
A – Yes, I cannot tell you exactly how it was done now
Q 98 – Was that the object of raising a new loan
A – That was the object of raising a new loan and transferring the mortgage to bring money in
Q 99 – It was 1901 that the company was formed
A – 1901 or 1902
Q 100 – 1901 or 1902
A – yes
Q 101 – Does the Winter Gardens exist now
A – Yes
Q 102 – In 1904 you set about making an electric tramway did you not
A – Yes, I signed a contract for the Electric Tramway
Q 103 – Was that to be built upon your property
A – On a portion of my property, on all the all the properties it was a contract for a purchase by me.
Q 104 – What was the tramway to cost you
A – £14,500
Q 105 – Was the tramway completed
A No, it was not completed
Q 106 – I think you said that this was one of the causes of your failure, did you not, the fact that the tramway was not completed.
A – Yes, I think it contributed to it

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Q 107 – I suppose your failure is also largely due to building speculations you could not realise your property
A – That is what it is at the present moment
Q 108 – I suppose you sold as many as you could
A – Yes, of the plots
Q 109 – Who was the Petitioning Creditor
A – Mrs Newman
Q 110 – You attribute your failure immediately to the action of the Petitioning Creditor
A – Yes
Q 111 – How was that
A – An action was commenced some long time ago to recover a certain sum of money which had been advanced on some property at Hemel Hempstead, 10 or 11 years ago. In the meantime I paid the solicitor of Mrs Newman, the greater part of the money and he absconded with the money, or a part of it, and I paid her a part. The other part he absconded with and when the action came on I saw her solicitor and explained the matter to her solicitor, and he said. “Well if you have paid this money once all you have to do is to prove it and if you do so that will be sufficient”. He said he would not take any other proceedings and I never entered any appearance on

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The understanding that no steps would be taken, but eventually he got Judgement on the ground that no appearance was entered, and when that was done I went to the solicitor and again explained the matter to him and said that he had agreed that nothing should be done, but he turned to me and said “It was no use talking to me I have got Judgement.
Q 112 – Did you take any steps to get that Judgement set aside
A – No, I tried to make an arrangement with him to put the matter straight. I arranged to pay a certain amount off per month for the portion of the money that I could not produce the receipts for at the time. The agreement was, that when I produced the receipts he was to allow me for those receipts, but they got misplaced, some of them I produced to him, but eventually when I found them he would not give we credit for them.
Q 113 – He would not give you credit for them but relied upon his Judgement
A – Yes
Q 114 – The Registrar : I think this gentleman has paid money to her. You were concerned in transactions besides these with Mrs Newman
A – I know that was said at the time, that is quite true that I

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Had no transactions with him for 8 years; but those transactions, the only transactions I had with Mr Linnett was one with Mr Newman, for 8 years I had no other transactions at all. When this matter came before you I had not the letter with me which would have cleared it up, but it has been found since; a letter direct from Mr Linnett acknowledging that this money was for Mr Newman’s mortgage.
Q 115 – Mr Whinney : I am instructed – that the Bankrupt has said the same thing to the Trustee but he has given no explanation of it and the Trustee does not know what it is about.
Q 116 – The Registrar : I put that question because when the case came before me then Mr Linnett stated that he had acted in money matters besides those of Mr Newman and I came to the conclusion that that was not disputed and there was nothing to show that the money paid to Mr Linnett was on Mr Newman’s account and therefore I thought the judgement was good.
Q 117 – The Official Receiver: Did you hand this to Mr Carter (Producing a document)
A – Yes, It is perfectly clear that Mr Linnett received over £225 for the balance of the account owing to Mr Newman, and in answer to

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That I gave him cheques besides cheques signed by Mr Linnett himself, you cannot dispute the facts now.
Q 118 – When did these transactions take place
A – When did the transactions with Mr Linnett take place?
Q 119 Yes
A – At the Cannon Street Hotel
Q 120 – When, how long ago
A – I cannot be sure, two years I should think
Q 121 – They do not appear in your books of account
A – I do not know, they would appear in the books when the cheques were cleared
Q 122 – A good many things do not appear in your books
A – Well, I am not a book keeper
Q 123 – Who kept your books
A – Clerks
Q 124 – Did they not have the regular set of books
A – They had legers and cash books, I do not understand them, I have a fairly good memory but I am no book keeper.
Q 125 – Did you ever have a balance sheet made out of your financial position
A – Yes
Q 126 – When was that made out
A – I think I have got a copy somewhere

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Q 127 – Have you got it
A – A copy of it?
Q 128 – Yes
A – Yes, I think there is one there
Q 129 – Well let me have a look at it. “approximate profit and loss account for the period of 3 years from the 1st April 1901 to the 31st March 1904”. Who made this account out.
A – Mr Hayward an accountant, I think his name is on it
Q 130 – Yes, Hayward, This is only an estimate you know
A – It is as near as I can get it
Q 131 – Among other things I see there is “Sale of Winter Gardens £12,000”.
A – Yes
Q 132 – There is nothing to show for that but paper
A – That was the money paid for it, it explains itself, we had to account for what was paid
Q 133 – Why did you have this account made out
A – To show how I stood
Q 134 – Was it made out at your instance
A – yes
Q 135 – Not with a purpose of obtaining any money
A – No
Q 136 – Have you had one made out before
A – No
Q 137 – This does not comprise all your lands
A – No
Q 138 – Then it is not much good

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A – Yes, I think it is, it comprises most of the assets that I dealt with
Q 139 – Surely not, it does not comprise all the land you have.
A – It mentions each one, there is more than one there I think
Q 140 – That was not all the property you had at that time, was it. I will give you the names of them (The official Receiver read the names to the deptor)
A – Yes – those were the names by which the estates were generally known before we cut them up into various plots.
Q 141 – Does that represent all the land that you possessed
A – It represents all at Canvey
Q 142 – You had none anywhere else
A – Yes, I had some at Rayleigh
Q – 143 – I thought they were all at Canvey.
A – No, they are mentioned in the mortgage list
Q 144 – What property had you at Rayleigh
A – Something over 1,000 acres
Q 145 – Does that appear in the statement of affairs
A – It would appear in the mortgage list of securities
Q 146 – I did not know that you had any there. This profit and loss account does not refer to that property at all
A – No, it would not refer to that property
Q 147 – It only refers to your dealings in

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Canvey Island
A – Yes
Q 148 – Does it include all the property you had
A – Those are the names of the estates as originally bought
Q 149 – Do these figures represent all your interest in the estates
A – No, the figures only show you what has been sold, those figures only show what has been actually dealt with, bought and sold again.
Q 150 – This only represents the account for 3 years
A – Yes
Q 151 – It does not show your financial position at all
A – It shows what profit I have made during that time, whether I have made profit or a loss does it not? It is very clear
Q 152 – It does affect to show that certainly
A – All I wanted to know is, whether I was making money
Q 153 – According to this you were making £46,288 profit
A – yes
Q 154 – Where does the net profit appear. This says “cost of land dealt with in cash £22,079” etc (The Official Receiver read down to the words) “Land Tax redemption £5000” Those are the items on the debit side
A – Yes
Q 155 – And on the credit side I have got “By sales during 1901 & 1902, £30,309”.

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A – It is more than that in those three years
Q 156 – By sales during 1902 & 1903 £36,900. You have not sold land to such an extent as that
A – That represents the land sold
Q 157 – Do you represent that you have received anything like that money
A – I think more than that has been paid to the Freeholders for their freeholds
Q 158 – More than £60,000
A – yes, a great deal of it at any rate
Q 159 – “Sale of Winter Gardens £12,000”. Were the other sales of the same description as the sale of the Winter Gardens
A – No, I should like to explain, Those sales were sales of land at the different auction sales.
Q 160 – Is this the gross amount of the purchase money
A Yes, that is the gross amount of the purchase money
Q 161 – Then you have got to take your mortgages into consideration before you arrive at the net amount of the purchase money.
A – That is the amount the people paid for the land
Q 162 – Then this is not a profit and loss account at all, it does not take into consideration the mortgage debts – Oh yes. I see it would. This account shows a gross total of £88,040 balance of profit £42,000, you never received that
A – No, that was the amount to be

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Received during that time for which the land was sold, but the money might not have been paid by those people. They were allowed £10,000 for that
Q 163 – Then the profit may not have been made if there is an allowance of £10,000
A – Yes, until we got the accounts from the different solicitors of how much they have received we could not put it right.
Q 164 – Where are those figures obtained from
A – From the estates book and the various books at the office, most of them I think are in Mr Carter’s hands at the present time.
Q 165 – Oh, I see Mr Hayward qualifies his statements by the note. Is that what you call the statement of assets and liabilities which was prepared in March 1904.
A – Yes, I think so
Q 166 – Is that all
A – Yes, that is all
Q 167 – Have you been sued by your creditors at all
A – yes
Q 168 – How long have you had judgement against you
A – I do not know, I could not tell you exactly. For the last 2 years we have had different actions going on
Q 169 – Have you had judgments against you

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A – Yes, there may be judgements in some of them
Q 170 – For money claims
A – Yes, If I had a right of dispute I should dispute it, we had adjustments in many cases
Q 171 – In many other cases you had judgments against you
A – yes
Q 172 – Have you been able to discharge all those Judgements
A – yes
Q 173 – Mrs Davis, she got judgement against you did not she
A – Yes
Q 174 – What was her claim
A – For £3,000 money lent on mortgage
Q 175 – Did she not have security
A – yes, she called in her mortgage money before the time agreed. When the money was advanced it was understood it was to stay for 2 years, but she called it in before the time and it was disputed.
Q 176 – Is it a mortgage debt what this refers to
A – Yes
Q 177 – She has her security
Q 178 – Mr Whinney : Yes, this was the security. (The learned Council explained the matter to the Official Receiver)
A -The case was withdrawn and the other side was never heard
Q 179 – Mr Whinney : The case was withdrawn in this way. The Debtor admitted his liability to some extent, but the Trustee was

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Not prepared to fight it out.
Q 180 – The Official Receiver :Now with regard to Messr Peebles, Bruce & Co, did not they get judgement against you.
A – They got judgement and I appealed against it, and the appeal was allowed.
Q 181 – When was that
A – It must have been in February sometime I believe
Q 182 – You entered them in your statement of affairs and in your examinations, as creditors for £14,500
A – There was a dispute under the contract. We did not dispute that money would be due to them if they had completed their contract, but as they did not complete their contract the money was not due.
Q 183 – Did not they get Judgement against you
A – They got judgement against me in the first place, we appealed against that judgement and leave to defend was given
Q 184 – Was not that after the Receiving Order
A – No it was before
Q 185 – The Registrar : Where are they in the statement of affairs
A – I think it is in the fully seemed list Sir.
Q 186 – The Official Receiver : No, it is a contingent liability Messrs Peebles Bruce & Company £14,500 amount of contract for Tramway and

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Electrical works at Canvey-on-sea security, second charge on a portion of Knightswick estate subject to first mortgage to Mr J. Dunn to secure £3,180, There is no account in your ledger concerning them.
A – Not with Peebles & Bruce, it was simply a contract and they had not completed that contract, they have not completed it yet.
Q 187 – £14,500 was the contract price was it
A – Yes
Q 188 – They have got their security.
A – Yes, I understood at the time that they were going to rest on the security.
Q 189 – Well, I must leave it there, I do not think I have anything else to ask now.

Examination by Mr Whinney
Q 190 – Now with regard to this contract with Messrs Peebles, Bruce & Company that was a contract for the construction of a tramway?
A – Yes
Q 191 – Entered into on the 22nd February 1904
A – yes
Q 192 – Was the provision for payment, under that contract, to be by instalments, I will read you the clause. The contract

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Price was to be £14,340 etc, (The learned Counsel read down the words) “as completed”
A – Yes, that is the first agreement
Q 193 – Have you paid any of those instalments
A – No
Q 194 – Never
A – No
Q 195 – Was there this provision in the agreement “ as security fot the payment of the contract price the said Frederick Hester binds himself” etc etc (The learned council read down to the words) “to be paid”.
A – Yes, I think that is a copy of the agreement
Q 196 – you remember that
A – Yes
Q 197 – You have not paid them a single instalment
A – No
Q 198 – Did you give them security
A – Yes
Q 199 What security was that
A – You have it there

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Q 200 – A charge on certain plots subject to a first mortgage of £3,000
A – yes
Q 201 – Do you know that Mr Russ claims to have a second charge on the Knightswick property
A – Not on that portion, on another portion Knightswick is a very large Estate.
Q 202 – What do you value the security at [for?] say you have given them
A – In the ordinary way as our sales went it would realise more than we have given them, that is £6 a plot, you have that it was estimated, we had it valued and the valuation showed when they took the charge upon that land it would pay the cost of the Railway but there was a dispute about that the time that they were to complete it in I believe was the 1st of June and think you will find the date there the 1st of June. On the 1st of June they had not laid out £150 on the job, we called upon them to account for it and asked them the meaning of it and extended the time until September they agreeing to allow £1000 damages for being behind in their contract.
Q 203 – Is this in writing this agreement
A – Oh yes in writing somewhere it is in the hands of the solicitors who fought the action for me.
Q 204 – Who are they

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[???Creusemann] and Rouse with the papers of the action that was going on
Q 205 – When the action was going on
A – Yes
Q 206 – Are you aware that the contractors have taken possession of the whole thing have taken possession of the tramway.
A – I do not know what they have done. I do not know whether they have taken possession
Q 207 – They have not delivered it over to you
A – It is not finished
Q 208 – You have not paid anything upon it
A – No, the second arrangement was this that if the thing was completed by the 1st of September £3500 I believe was to be paid but on the 1st of September they had not finished two thirds of the line
Q 209 – Yes, now you bring this line in as one of your assets in your statement of affairs as being worth £6000 to you
A – Yes – just so
Q 210 – How do you justify that you still had to pay £14000 for it
A – Just so because Peebles And Bruce had taken security for their railway and I understand that they would not claim this Railway – that they could not claim it.
Q 211 – It was only an understanding then

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A – It was very clear, they could not touch it under the circumstances, they cannot take the Railway up
Q 212 – Well has this clause in the contract ever been altered “The entire payment” etc etc (Reading to the words) “of the contract”.
A – It may not have been altered in as much as that tramway runs through certain land that was mortgaged. Peebles and Bruce have not a claim over the whole of the land upon which the line runs.
Q 213 – Nor have you
A – I had up to the time of my Bankruptcy
Q 214 – But the tramway is not worth £6000 to you
A – It would have been worth more if t was running
Q 215 – It was not worth £6,000 to the Trustee
A – I do not know what it will fetch now in my present position as I have stated I always thought it was worth £20,000 to me.
Q 216 – If it was completed fully completed and paid for and the property developed by you as you understood to develop it it would be of value
A – yes
Q 217 – But you have made default in everything. You have neither made the roads or done anything else
A – I never said I would
Q 218 – You never formed the roads

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A – Those roads were made first according to the money that has come in. In the development of this estate until the whole thing is completed it is impossible for me to finish everything
Q 219 – That is what we have come to now. Who was the person you bought from in reference to this Estate. Who was the principal vendor
A – There were a number of them
Q 220 – Was not Mr Clarke the vendor
A – He was one
Q 221 – What did he sell
A – He would sell the Chapman Beach Estate or the Shell beach Estate
Q 222 – Can you not tell me which
A – I cannot tell you now. I have put them into the names of about 20 the Chapman Estate.
Q 223 – The names I have got are
A – All those are a portion of it
Q 224 – All those were purchased from Mr Clarke
A – And many more besides
Q 225 – What did you pay Mr Clarke for them
A – I believe my contract was for £30,000 with Mr Clarke for those estates, it may be £32,000 or £33,000. I cannot tell you exactly
Q 226 – What was the date of the contract with Mr Clarke
A – The date of the first one would

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Be 1900
Q 227 – Which would that be
A – That was South View Estate
Q 228 – That is not one of them
A – Yes, one of the same portion of the Estate
Q 229 – Of all these contracts the date given was the 12th of December 1902
A – Yes, this is before those
Q 230 – Not included in this list
A – Not included in that list No
Q 231 – What properties are those
A – They would be the Seabeach Estate. I have put them in new names now, they were known as Chapman Beach and Station and South View Estates.
Q 232 – They were purchased from Mr Clarke
A – Yes, they were purchased from Mr Clarke
Q 233 – Were they all purchased on the same terms
A – Similar terms, oh no doubt of it, all that you have got there is what we call the 323 acres, they were originally called Record that lot.
Q 234 – This is the only agreement that the trustee has been able to get. What you purchased from Mr Clarke according to this you were to pay him £10 down.
A – Yes
Q 235 – You agreed to pay altogether £1786.10.0 of which you paid £10 according to this agreement.

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A – There is something wrong there, there was £6,000
Q 236 – Yes, I agree there was £6,000 when you took up other agreements
A – You have got one there
Q 237 – Yes, I want to get it from you. You paid him £10 down
A – Yes
Q 238 – You were to pay him £1,500 on or before the 25th of March 1903
A – Yes
Q 239 – Have you ever paid it
A – You have not told me what the Estate is yet
Q 240 – “The Record”, you told me yourself
A – yes, but the Estate was cut up into 10 portions and you got one of them
Q 241 – This is called Shellbeach portion forming a part of the Record Farm.
A – Yes
Q 242 – You told me just now it was not the shellbeach
A – I told you it was not Chapman Beach, there is Chapman Beach and there is Shellbeach

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Q 243 – Where will the Trustee find particulars of all these estates
A – From those contracts
Q 244 – But he has not got the contracts
A – But they are in the hands of the solicitors
Q 245 – What solicitors
A – The same solicitors that the Trustee got that from W. Thorne, it is
Q 246 – You mean in the vendor’s solicitor’s possession not your solicitors
A – Yes, the vendor’s solicitors acted for me and he could give you the copies the same as that
Q 247 – Have you not kept in any book a record of what property you bought
A – In our Estate book you have it there. There is in my Estate book Shell Beach 1,2 & 3
Q 248 – You say that all the particulars of your properties are contained in this Estate book
A – Yes, the names of the estate will be found there
Q 249 – No those books contain particulars of the plots that you sold
A – Yes, the names and addresses of the purchasers
Q 250 – Will you swear that
A – I will do so
Q 251 – Have you not got a separate book called the Estate book which would contain particulars of all these estates
A – No, you had the books there
Q 252 – The Trustee says that he has not got them

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A – we have had them from his office
Q 253 – No those books show what you have paid and what you received for these properties
A – With the names and addresses of these purchasers and what we got for these various plots
Q 254 – Now I am told he has not got that book. The trustee wants the book. He wants you know the one that was at the Fenchurch Street office that your son removed
A – No, my son did not remove any book.
Q 255 – Was there not such a book
A – We had a book which one of the clerks has lost
Q 256 – Lost
A – Yes, supposed to be by you have copies of the greater part of it. Mr Carter has copies
Q 257 – What sort of dicuments, were they loose sheets
A – no, proper books. You had them from Messrs Rouse’s office Mr Carter.
Q 258 – What the Trustee instructs me is —-
A – There is a book missing
Q 259 – Yes, there was a book missing, an important book that contains all the dealings with the various properties
A – Yes, the clerk was supposed to take it to my Solicitor who was acting for me at the time
Q 260 – Eggleton
A – One of your Clerks

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A – Yes one of my son’s clerks
Q 262 – Is he still in your employ
A – No, but be could be got at
Q 263 – What became of it
A – He says he left it in Mr G office the solicitor who was acting for me in Mr Davis action, that was one of the books to be produced but Mr G says that he did not
Q 264 – You say that you know nothing about it
A- I do not, no. I have threatened the man in every way I can
Q 265 – What man
A – Mr Eggleton
Q 266 – What good will it be to him
A – I cannot tell you. He may have got some money for it for all I know I have some suspicion where it has gone to. My opinion is that it has been stolen and sold to some one the names and addresses of all our customers are in that book.
Q 267 – Who do you call customers
A – People who have bought land from us
Q 268 – The people who came down on these trips from London by train
A – Yes, the people who bought land, a list of them
Q 269 – They came down to your periodical sales and bought on one or two occasions land
A – Yes
Q 270 – Those you call customers
A – yes, they are people who deal in land who buy and sell it, a good many of them
Q 271 – Do you suggest that this land was not bought for building on but as a

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Speculation for people
A – Many of them have bought plots of mine for sale again
Q 272 – Now I want to get some particulars about this, take this particular estate which you call the Shell Beach Estate; the first portion forms part of the Estate for which £10 was paid down and £1,500 was to be paid on the 25th March 1903 and the balance by instalments payable quarterly
A – Yes
Q 273 – Did you ever pay them
A – I did not but they have been paid
Q 274 – Did you ever pay them
A – I did not pay them personally
Q 275 – No, you never paid any single instalment beyond the £10
A – No, certainly not. In any other way than that they have been paid.
Q 276 – Was there a provision in this agreement that you should be at liberty to call for conveyances of plots sold by you
A – Yes
Q 277 – Was that the practice with regard to all these contracts with Mr Clark
A – Yes
Q 278 – Did the same provision apply to all the properties namely that you were to hand over the sub purchase price less 15%
A – No, that is with regard to those estates that you have got, nothing to do with the other Estates, that has been subsequently altered. That has been altered since then that is the only line to go on in dealing with these estates

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Q 279 – Line to go by
A – Yes, that was the understanding we started upon but we did not continue it

Q 280 – I do not quite understand, it was the agreement that you should receive 15 per cent.
A – Yes
Q 281 – Was there another agreement that £10 should be appropriated to the payment of Mr Clarke’s solicitor.
A – Yes, on counsel’s advice I believe that was.
Q 282 – Did you thereupon purport to give Mr Clarke’s solicitor a mortgage over the whole of these lands if you should not be able to pay off the 10 per cent until you had paid all the instalments of the purchase price
A – I believe that is so
Q 283 – But even in that agreement is there a right for you to receive 15 per cent of the sub sales
A – Yes
Q 284 – Have you received 15 per cent from those sub sales
A – Yes I should think so
Q 285 – From whom
A – From the various purchasers
Q 286 – Did you ever receive any purchase money from the purchasers
A – Why yes, I have always received the purchase money from the purchasers

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Q 287 – Then the arrangement that was made at the time of the sale was not carried out
A – No
Q 288 – Mr Thorne did not receive the purchase money
A – In some cases he did not, in other cases he would. At one time there was £800 due to me
Q 289 – How do you know that
A – He told me so
Q 290 – How did you know it
A – He told me that I did not owe any money. He was a very respectable solicitor
Q 291 – But you do not rely upon a verbal statement
A – I should think that the solicitor who had the evidence knew
Q 292 – But do not you keep account of it. Do not you keep entries of these contracts made for sales and these loans.
A – Yes, in the books
Q 293 – In the book that is missing.
A – No, in the books that Mr Carter has
Q 294 – He says he has not got them
A – That is a misunderstanding they are there nearly all of them are in the books he has
Q 295 – Nearly all of them
A – Yes
Q 296 – Why not all
A – There may be a difference in one or two estates that are not correctly

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Copied out, but he has copies of the book as far as it goes
Q 297 – Now all these sales that you made were for payment by instalments were they not
A – The majority of them were. We did not keep one hard and fast line perhaps some people would pay up on the same day that the land was knocked down to them, in that case I had the whole of the purchase money. I mean Mr Thorne had the money to be paid to him, but the money would first be received by me.
Q 298 – Where do those entries appear now.
A – They would appear in the same book if it was paid at the same time.
Q 299 – They would show it as a set off against the mortgage
A – No, that I received the money
Q – 300 – But you told me that you would set up it off against the mortgage
A – Yes
Q 301 – Where would that appear
A – Not in any book but in the solicitor’s accounts. When they [??? Rem dered] their accounts it would show that I had taken up certain plots of land and received so much money for them
Q 302 – Do you say that all the accounts you have are in the missing books
A – No, in my books that Mr Carter

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Has, Mr Carter has a copy of the book that was lost, they would show the amount of the land that was sold and what amount was received by us.
Q 303 – The Trustee tells me that is not so
A – If it is here I can show you
Q 304 – The Trustee says that the book he has got contains only rudimentary information and does not give any real information at all.
Q 305 – The Registrar: You must point out to the Trustee what you say shows it.
Q 306 – Mr Whinney : I was rather leading up to this sir. I was going to ask your Honour to order a cash account because from the material we have got it is impossible to see in any way he has received either in regard to the instalments or the 15 per cent he is entitled to in this contract.
A – A copy of it has been given to the Trustee’s clerk.
Q 307 – Of What
A An account of the money received by me
Q 308 – Do you mean this thing (Handing)
A – No, I do not mean that a copy was made out and given to Mr Fred Carter of all the money that we had received by way of deposit and by way of purchase money. It is a fact I saw it handed to him.

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Q 309 – The Trustee says from time to time that he has been given scraps of information, information of this kind.
A – That was given on the first day that Mr Fred Carter went down to Canvey I saw my clerk hand it to him but he can have another copy of it.
Q 310 – Do you mean on bits of paper
A – No, on sheets of foolscap
Q 311 – Separate sheets of foolscap
A – Yes, showing the money received this four or five years. I remember one item we had received £3,000 on deposit and in payment of lands, each one was set out for the last four years.
Q 312 – Where did you get that information from
A – That came out of my books
Q 313 – Where are those books
A – Mr Carter has some of them
Q 314 – Where are they
A – They may be at Canvey now
Q 315 – Why did you not hand them over
A – He can have them, he thought it was not necessary
Q 316 – Who thought it was not necessary
A – Mr Fred Carter, he looked over them, I am not an accountant. I thoroughly understood that my book stated it
Q – You thoroughly understood that your book stated it
A – Yes

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Q 318 – Now take the details of your sales, these amounts total up to £30,309
A – Yes
Q 319 – Does that represent the flat figures of sub sales of plots
A – Yes, that is what it would be
Q 320 – Where did you get this from.
A – This would come out of the Estate book.
Q 321 – This one which is missing
A – No, the one that Mr Carter has it would show the name of the Estate the number of plots sold and the amount paid, if it was 20 or 30 or 40 plots.
Q 322 – Have you any cash book which shows that
A – The cash books they would show the cash received
Q 323 – Where are they, the cash books
A – The cash book shows all the transactions the amount of cash received for every plot, the number of plots and the names of the purchasers and the party who sold them and the date when it was received.
Q 324 – Does it show who received the cash
A – yes
Q 325 – Do you mean that every sale that was made was entered in your books as cash received by you
A Cash received by me
Q 326 – By you personally
A- No, not by me personally by my

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Clerks and it is accounted for.
Q 327 – What has become of that cash.
A – Paid into the Bank and spent in the expenses of the Estate
Q 328 – But have you any cash book that shows the entries of this cash received.
A – They are what I call cash books it may be a book showing what was paid in and what was paid out.
Q 329 – Where are those cash books
A – I do not know whether Mr Carter has got them I know Mr Carter had got them everything was laid out for him when he came down there all the information that I have got can be found in the books that Mr Carter has.
Q 330 – Had you not an office at Fenchurch Street
A – Yes
Q 331 – Was not your son in charge of the office
A – yes
Q 332 – Had he not got some books
A – Never, he ought not to have them if he had
Q 333 – I know that
A – Any books were handed over in Fenchurch Street or a portion of the books were handed over which were required
Q 334 – You say there are certain books at Canvey
A – Yes

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Q 335 – Where
A – IN the office there
Q 336 – There are other books that you have not handed over to the Trustee
A – Yes
Q 337 – There is one book which you say is lost
A – Yes, one book lost
Q 338 – Do you say that you have no other books or never had any other books in connection with the business
A – No
Q 339 – You never had any
A – No, I do not know of any others
Q 340 – Well you must know
A – I never had any others
Q 341 – May I take it that you never had a cash book
A – There was a cash book
Q 342 – Is that the same as this Estate book
A – Yes, the same thing
Q 343 – That is not a cash book. Now I want to know have you got a petty cash book
A – I do not know what you mean there was what I called a cash book handed over
Q 344 – Well now to go back to this item again
Q 345 – The Registrar : I suppose you understand what he means by the office t Canvey
A – Oh yes they know Sir
Q 346 – The registrar : As I understand there

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Is a Company there
A – It is the same thing
Q 347 – Mr Whinney : That is what I want to get at Sir. As I understand you are living in the office.
A – Yes
Q 348 – And actually in possession of the office and of everything in it
A – Yes
Q 349 – Then how can you say it is in the possession of the Trustee
A – Well, everything there is at his disposal
Q 350 – The Registrar : Are you preparing to hand over to the trustee all the books in the office
A – Yes, the company’s books are handed over, you have most of the company’s books
Q 351 – Mr Whinney : But the trustee says that there are other books which he is informed were used but not handed over
A – I should like to know where they are and what they are I do not know but if you tell me I should be very glad to find it out. They may have been used in my office but I do not know where they are or what they are except this one that was lost.
Q 352 – When you talk of the office which do you mean, the one at Canvey or the one at Fenchurch Street
A- The Canvey Office principally
Q 353 – You must know what is there
A – I know what is there and that

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What there is is at the disposal of Mr Carter or his clerk. His clerk has come down and taken away what he liked.
Q 354 – The OR : Were those books brought up here
A – The books that were looked out by Mr Carter’s own son and his Clark were all brought up, what they thought was necessary
Q 355 – Mr Whinney : There were some others that were not brought up
A – They were not brought up, a letter was sent to the office I believe saying that there were other books but they were not necessary.
Q 356 – The Trustee tells me that his clerk went down there and selected every book that was of value that you produced to him, but they were not all produced.
A – Everything is down in the Swedish Bungalow, they are all down there and can be sent up to Mr Carter. I have nothing to hide. I am not ashamed of anything I have done in these contracts.
Q 357 – What is the address of the office of the company
A – It has not got an office at present
Q 358 – It is at your Bungalow
A – Yes
Q 359 – Who are the Directors od that Company
A – My son is one and Mr Kell, Mr Allen, three besides myself.
Q 360 – What is Mr Kells interest in the

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Company
A – He is a shareholder in the Company
Q 361 – Of How many shares
A – I cannot tell you exactly
Q 362 – Did he pay anything for those shares
A – I do not think he did
Q 363 – Did you give him those shares
A – Those shares were handed over to him so that he could be a Director
Q 364 – What about Mr Allen
A – Mr Allen has not got his shares yet
Q 365 – Then, nobody else holds shares in the company besides yourself.
A – My son did
Q 366 – Did he pay for the shares
A – No
Q 367 – Well I may take it that the whole Company belongs to you
A – No, some of the shares have been sold
Q 368 – That is just what I ask you
A – 300 or 400 of the shares have been sold
Q 369 – To whom
A – To different people
Q 370 – Sold to whom
A – I cannot tell you sold in the office, they came to the clerk.
Q 371 – They went to your office
A- The Office of the company originally my office it was carried on in the same office.

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Q 372 – You say there were shares sold
A – Yes, there were shares sold
Q 373 – Who received the money for them
A – I did
Q 374 – Then with that exception the whole of the company belongs to you
A – We never practically worked the Company I have not had time to work it. I have had too much business to attend to
Q 375 – Are you prepared to hand over all the Company’s books as well
A – As far as I know, Mr Carter has all access to the Company’s books
Q 376 – Mr Carter has not. Oh yes they have just been sent apparently
A – Yes, they were sent up when Mr Carter asked for them they were sent up
Q 377 – Now this £30,309, had you received the whole of that at the time
A – No
Q 378 – Have you received the whole of it now
A – I do not know
Q 379 – Have you received half of it
A – What is that
Q 380 – The sales during 1902 and 1903
A – I believe Mr Russ has received over £20,000
Q 381 – How do you know tht Mr Russ has collected over £20,000
A – He has told me so
Q 382 – Mr Russ would have at least to be paid the whole of his mortgage money
A – Yes, but he may have lent it out again in other estates, he was deeply interested in my Estate. As the money came in he

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Would lend it out again
Q 383 – Lend it to you
A – Yes, on another Estate
Q 384 – On another Estate
A – Yes, if it came in from No 1 he would fund it on No2.
Q 385 – The OR : He would not do that without your knowing it, he could not get a new mortgage
A – No, if £200 or £300 came in and he lent it again and a new mortgage would be taken for the new advance
Q 386 – Mr Whinney : Now did not most of these instalments paid for these sub sales include in each case the sum of £3-10-0 towards the expenses of making the roads
A – Yes
Q 387 – And £1 for the Tithe redemption
A – Yes
Q 388 – Who received those sums
A – They went to the mortgages. They were collected by them.
Q 389 – Have those roads been made
A – No
Q 390 – Or the Tithe paid
A – No
Q 391 – Then a claim may be made in respect of that
A – What I have to do with the roads is to put down three inches of hardcore, that was taken at £3-10-0. That was the upset price of our plots, the upset price was £4-10-0
Q 392 – This document says (The learned Counsel read an extract down the words) “together

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With interest there on”
A – Yes
Q 393 – What right have the mortgages to receive this money
A – It does not say that I must lay out £3-10-0 upon the roads. I used to put down three inches of clinker
Q 394 – And £3-10-0 was to cover it
A – Yes, quite so. It was taken as purchase money
Q 395 – What right had the mortgagees to receive it
A – They took all money coming into my hands until it was paid off, many of these roads have been formed, we cut roads through many of these plots by putting the allotted portion of clinker down. There were over three miles of roads made in accordance with the contract on the estate.
Q 396 – Why did you tell me that you had not made the roads.
A – I had not made them all. You are speaking of the whole. I have made some of them.
Q 397 – Do you admit that the mortgages are entitled to receive these sums
A – I thought they were entitled to receive them until the mortgages are paid off.
Q 398 – Was that by a specific arrangement with you
A – Yes I think so
Q 399 – Because it does not seem to represent purchase money
A – It is purchase money; that was the upset price of the plots
Q 400 – So much for each plot and so much

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For making the roads
A – The upset price was £4-10-0 for which I had to pay £3-10-0 for the roads and redeeming the Tithe for which I agreed to do
Q 401 – You received some thousands of pounds
A – Yes, I received some thousands of pounds
Q 402 – You anticipate there will be some portion for your Estate
A – It would be £2,000 for the expense which it would cost me for the roads as far as regards the land which was sold
Q 403 – Now the sales during 1902 and 1903, £36,900, how much of that has been received
A – I could not tell you until the solicitor’s accounts are in
Q 404 – You surely must know something of it
A – No, we do not know how much is paid until the solicitor’s accounts are rendered
Q 405 – No you mean your Solicitor’s or the Solicitor’s for the mortgagees.
A – They were both one and the same.
Q 406 – Who were they
A – There would be Mr Thorne, the Solicitor for Mr Clarke and myself in respect of those Estates and there would be Mr Rouse for his clients and himself and he would act for me in the same matters.
Q 407 – But you ought to know how much money was received
A – I asked him some time ago how much he had received and he told me there would be over £20,000 received.
Q 408 – Was that more than sufficient to pay off the mortgages

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A – No, because there was a very considerable amount of land that I have bought from the original owners and whatever he has received had gone off the mortgages but there is a lot more land; a lot more of securities left.
Q 409 – You mean there is a lot of land you contracted to purchase but have not paid for. Is that what you mean.
A – I may have paid for it. There may be a part mortgaged and a part not.
Q 410 – Why do you say “may”
A – In many cases it may be as you say that I have contracted to purchase certain lands that may be right in regard to some estates and others I may have taken up the freeholds of.
Q 411 – Is there any estate of which you took up the freehold
A – Yes, I took up the whole of Knightswick
Q 412 – How much did you pay for that
A – £8,900
Q 413 – Who did you pay it to
A – The original owners and then Mr Clarke has received a further £1,000 from me
Q 414 – The total purchase price was only £9,000
A – That particular Estate, but the amount of my contract was £30,000
Q 415 – With Clark
A – I told you so. That is a portion of it
Q 416 – What Estates are these
A – Those are the Shell Beach Estate, the South View, Chapman Beach and Station one and

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Two
Q 417 – Those estates cost £30,000
A – They cost £33,000 altogether including those
Q 418 – Are they all situated in Canvey Island
A – Yes
Q 419 – What is the size of the Station Estate
A – I cannot tell you. Between 400 and 500 plots
Q 420 – How many acres
A – Do you mean the whole lot?
Q 421 – Yes, Station 1 and 2
A – Station 1 + 2 I should think they would be 12 or 14 acres. I should think so but I cannot tell you exactly.
Q 422 – What was the price per acre
A – I do not know. I cannot tell you from memory.
Q 423 – You must know
A – No, the bulk of those estates were bought for £17,000 but I could not tell you what I paid for the station now.
Q 424 – The whole of these Estates what do you mean what do you mean by the whole of them
A – The whole of that portion
Q 425 – What portion
A – The Chapman beach. I wish I could explain. The Station was a portion of the Chapman Beach and the first price was £17,000 and that was apportioned out in various sums according to the position of the plot. Those Estates were included in this agreement which we call the Shell Beach Estate if you look.
Q 426 – What other Estate did Mr Clarke sell you
A – I do not think he sold any

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Q 427 – If you take my purchase price of £6,000 and your purchase price £17,000 it does not make £33,000
A – You have not got them all yet
Q 428 – You told me that the whole of these Estates, the station 1 + 2, Chapman beach, and shell beach were sold for £17,000
A – Yes
Q 429 – What other estate was there
A – The South View estate, altogether Mr Clarke’s Estates came to £33,000 as far as I remember in round figures.
Q 430 – How can the Trustee get material for knowing how much you owe to Mr Clarke
A – The solicitor has my contract Mt Thorne has my contract
Q 431 – I mean in your books
A – My books would not show it
Q 432 – You have no idea what you have paid to Mr Clarke
A – Over £10,000
Q 433 – Then there is £23,000 owing
A – No, there is only £17,000 owing to Mr Clarke
Q 434 – Well, now then we come to further sales in 1903 and 1904, an account of £18,613
A – Yes
Q 435 – What was that paid in respect of
A – £14,014 was paid on Knightswick
Q 436 – was paid
A – Or payable on the Oyster Fleet Estate £2,145, that was paid on the Oyster Fleet Estate.
Q 437 – How much did you say first would be payable
A – £15,000

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Q 438 – That is £33,000 those too
A – Yes
Q 439 – The rest of the land is £22,000 including the £12,000 for the Winter Gardens but only £10 has been paid. Have all these plots been conveyed.
A – Yes, I should think so. All that were paid for have been conveyed, some are waiting for their conveyances at the present time
Q 440 – Some of them, have the instalments been paid too
A – Yes
Q 441 – You have received them
A – Yes
Q 442 – In every case
A – Yes, except those handed over to the banks
Q 443 – Has not your son received instalments
A Yes, he would take them in that sense that he was in the office
Q 444 – Is your son still receiving them.
A No, he would not do such a thing
Q 445 – How you know
A – I have not asked him I know that he would do such a thing.
Q 446 – He has not received them with your knowledge.
A – He has not received them with my knowledge
Q 447 – Was your son in your employment
A – Yes he was
Q 448 – Was he not in a business of his own
A – not until six months ago
Q 449 – Did not he act as an auctioneer
A – Yes, he was in my employment as an auctioneer.

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Q450 – Now had he not a business called Nortons Furnishing Company
A – Until bar 8 months ago. He had not I believe he is in business with his wife.
Q 451 – Did not that Company Shortly before your Bankruptcy purchase a large quantity of furniture and other articles from you.
A – Yes
Q 452 – What was the price paid
A – Oh various items. They paid one sum of £100. They paid another sum of £12 another sum of £15, altogether they paid £172.
Q 453 – £172 who received those moneys.
A – I received them
Q 454 What did you do with them
A – I spent them
Q 455 – Did you pay them into your Bank
A – No, I do not think any of them went in. A small sum might have gone into the Bank but they were used for wages.
Q 456 – Used for wages
A – Yes
Q 457 – Was there any schedule of the property that was handed over
A – Yes, there was an Inventory. Most of the property was originally sold to Major Harrison.
Q 458 – Who is Major Harrison
A – The gentleman who took over the Winter Gardens for a short while.
Q 459 – In what sense, leased them from the Company.

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A – Well, he entered into an agreement to lease.
Q 460 – From the Company
A – Yes, then he sold off the furniture fittings and fixtures whatever there was there.
Q 461 – In the Winter Gardens
A – In the Winter Gardens and in the various Bungalows. It was one and the same thing.
Q 462 – Were they your property
A – Yes, they were my property afterwards. He came back afterwards and I arranged to take them over again from him.

Q 463 – What was the price that the Major Harrison was to pay.
A – £400 odd I think
Q 464 – £400 odd
A Yes, I cannot tell you from memory It is in the book
Q 465 – How much more was he to pay than £400
A – I could not tell you whether it was £350 or £450. I could not tell you.
Q 466 – Did he pay all he was to pay
A – He paid all he was to pay for the furniture fixtures and fittings.
Q 467 – Was that the same furniture that you sold to the Norton Furnishing Company
A – Yes
Q 468 – The Registrar – Perhaps the trustee would like to have this in an account.
Q 469 Mr Whinney – Yes, Sir I should be very glad of it
–
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Q 470 The Witness : Well, I have no objection
Q 471 Mr Whinney : Where did you get the materials from that you entered in this book
A – It was taken from various books that I have, from the books handed over to Mr Carter.
Q 472 – Have you taken them from any other books except those handed over to Mr Carter.
A – No, all the information is there. Mr Carter will find these are simply items I jotted down at various times
Q 473 – Has that book been made up since you became Bankrupy.
A – Yes, it was an old note book. I had but most of the entries in this were put in afterwards, they were just questions I thought might be asked here.
Q 474 – Was it made up after you handed over the books to the Official Receiver.
A – It may have been made up just before.
Q 475 – I do not want to know what may have been, tell me the fact.
A – At various times it was made up
Q 476 – Was it made up before you handed over the books to the Official Receiver
A – yes, as I had not got the particulars, I just jotted them down as I might be asked here.
Q 477 – There is nothing in that book that the Trustee will not find.
A – I do not think so.

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Q 478 – Who fixed the price to be paid by the Norton Furnishing Company
A – I did, At least I took whatever they offered.
Q 479 – Who did you bargain with
A – I think I made it with my son in most cases
Q 480 – In most cases
A – Yes, in most cases
Q 481 – Why most cases. Was it more than one sale.
A – Yes, several sales. You will find them on four entries.
Q 482 – Yes, there may be three or four entries but were there several sales
A – Yes
Q 483 – Did they buy them from time to time
A – Yes
Q 484 – When did Major Harrison leave
A – He left in December
Q 485 – When did you begin to sell
A – I sold before Major Harrison left
Q 486 – You sold before Major Harrison left
A – Yes, before he went, some of them because I know sometime after I agreed to take them back.
Q 487 – They were Major Harrisons property
A – Oh no, they were not. On the 14th of December I agreed to buy them back from him.
Q 488 – On the 14th December
A – Yes, I agreed to take them back
Q 489 – You told me that Major Harrison left in December
A – He left at the latter end of December
Q 490 – You did not say that

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A – Sometime after
Q 491 – Then you began to sell them directly after you agreed to buy them back
A – On the same day
Q 492 – How much did you pay Major Harrison to get them back
A – I do not think anything
Q 493 – Did you get them back for nothing
A – Well, I agreed to release him from a responsibility of £150
Q 494 – To whom
A – To me personally
Q 495 – You agreed to take them over for a specific sum and purpose
A – I agreed to release him on condition that he gave up a portion of the furniture that was there. We valued it. I think there was something like £150. I could not tell you exactly from memory.
Q 496 – What would that be for
A – For rent
Q 497 – It would be for rent
A – Yes
Q 498 – I thought the Winter Gardens was the property of the Company
A – Yes but I was in possession of the leasehold interest, the freehold belonging to the company, the leasehold interest was in the possession of the mortgagees.
Q 499 – Oh, the Company had not got the freehold
A – The company has the freehold
Q 500 – Not the leasehold
A – Not the leasehold

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Q 501 – The leasehold is mortgaged do you say
A – Yes, well part of it. Mr Carter has the security now but a portion has been mortgaged. They are in my list.
Q 502 – Who to . The Municipal Building Society.
A – The freehold
Q 503 – What is Mr Russ’ Mortgage over
A – I believe he bought my interest. I remember now the last transaction with Mr Russ, be bought my interest in the freehold of the Winter Gardens.
Q 504 – He bought your freehold interest in the Winter Gardens
A – Yes
Q 505 – Was that after the formation of the Company
A – That was after the formation of the Company

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Q 506 – Had you any interest in the sale to the Company
A – I had £6000 mortgage on it Sir
Q 507 – You sold that mortgage to Mr Russ.
A – I sold the equity to Mr Russ the Municipal Building Society had advanced £3000 upon it.
Q 508 – On that mortgage
A – On that mortgage then I sold the equity to Mr Russ.
Q 509 – Now then we are getting a little bit of the history of the Company, the Company agreed to purchase from you the Winter gardens and the bungalows at a price of £12000
A – Yes
Q 510 – At that time you told the Official Receiver that the Winter Gardens were on Mortgage to Mr Russ.
A – Yes
Q 511 – Do you say that what happened was this, that the purchase price was paid by giving a first mortgage for £6000
A – Yes
Q 512 – There was to be a first mortgage for £6000 to the municipal Building Society
A – That is it
Q 513 – Then you sold your equity of redemption in the £6000 mortgage to Mr Russ
A – Yes
Q 514 – Did you sell it out and out

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A – I think I sold it out and out as far as I remember, I think so.
Q 515 – What did you receive for it
A – I could tell you exactly what it was it was a cash transaction you know
Q 516 – Was that the transaction by which you got rid of the prior mortgage that Mr Russ had.
A – I should not think so. I must have done that before.
Q 517 – Do you know anything about the dealings at all between you and Mr Russ.
A – I think so. Have you not mentioned them.
Q 518 – I was asking you, I do not say I know anything about them.
A – Oh yes, I do
Q 519 – Then tell me when was that prior item paid off
A – I cannot tell when it was paid off
Q 520 – How was it paid off
A – It would be paid off
Q 521 – Do not say “would be”
A – Was paid off by the Municipal Building Society, the loan was made to us and I paid him off.
Q 522 – You paid him off out of that
A – Yes
Q 523 – It was only mortgaged for £3000 before that
A – Yes, I think so
Q 524 – Do you know

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A – I cannot tell you the exact amount it may be £3500
Q 525 – Who registered the Central Park Estate Company
A – Mr Russ
Q 526 – What induced you to form the Central Park Estates Company
A – I thought that my business was too large to attend to and I thought I would get others into the Company to help me.
Q 527 – But you carried on the business of the Company yourself
A – Yes
Q 528 – By your own office ever since
A – Yes
Q 529 – It has not relieved you much
A – No, the Directors have not taken much interest in it, I thought they would.
Q 530 – They were your nominees were they not
A – No not exactly they took some sort of interest in it
Q 531 – An interest which you gave them
A – Yes
Q 532 – They were your nominees
A – Yes
Q 533 The Registrar : Can you finish today Mr Whinney
Q 534 Mr Whinney : I fear not Sir
Q 535 The Registrar : Then we had better adjourn now so that we can finish the remaining case.
Q 536 Mr Harper : I should like to ask the Debtor one question Sir

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Q 537 The Registrar : Yes
Q 538 Mr Harper : In April 1901 the Debtor informed me that he would be on the Island for about four years he is not very far wrong in his estimate as far as I can make out. What would be your motive in saying that in 1901.
A – I do not know what it is you mean
Q 539 The Registrar : He wishes to know why you said in 1901 that you would be on the Island for four years
A – Well, I have been there four years have I not.
Q 540 Mr Harper – Yes, that is exactly as you calculated it, it is very funny
A – Very well
Q 541 The Registrar : I do not think that we need pursue that question. I see what your suggestion is.

The sitting was adjourned to the 6th July at 11 o clock [1905]

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In the High Court of Justice
In Bankruptcy of
Before Mr Registrar Hope
Sir re Frederick Hester No 156 of 1905

Adjd Public Examination of the Debtor at the court, Bankruptcy buildings, Carey Street W.C.

This 6th Day of July 1905.
(Transcript of the shorthand notes of Mr C. V?. Edsall of Portugal street building Lincoln Inn fields W.C. Official shorthand writer to the court).

Mr G.W.Chapman Official Receiver appeared.

Mr Whinney, of council (instructed by Messrs Laurence Webster, Messer V. Taylor) appeared for the trustee.

The above named debtor being sworn + examined at the time + place above mentioned upon the several questions following being put + propounded to him gave the several answers therein respectively following each question that is to say

Q 542 – The O.R. – I have finished my examination

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Of this case Sir, the Debtor is in the hands of Mr Whinney for the Trustee.
Q 543 – Mr Whinney – I have a few questions to ask Sir.
Examined by Mr Whinney
Q 544 – Mr HESTER, last time you told me that there was a book that was missing.
A – Yes
Q 545 – The Book which contains apparently the summaries of the various estate accounts.
A – Yes
Q 546 – Have you made any more enquiries about that book or made any attempt to find it?
A – I have. I do not know what enquiries to make about it any further. I have not a chance of making any further enquires.
Q 547 – You know Mr EGGLETON says that he did not lose it.
A – I do not know about that. He told me he did.
Q 548 – He told the Official Receiver a different story, he told the official receiver that the book was in your possession at the time he left.
A – But Mr EGGLETON said that he had that book and that he had lost it.
Q 549 – He said he did not lose it.

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A – He told me himself that he had lost it.
Q 550 – Last time you said that you had some impression as to where it was gone.
A – Well, I do not mean to infer[sic] that I had any impression as to where it was gone to, but what I meant was that it would be useful to other persons in the same line of business. I have no idea where it has gone.
Q 551 – You still persist in your story that EGGLETON lost the book.
A – Yes.
Q 552 – Mr Greff (?) did not have it
A – He said he did not have it and his clerk deny that he ever left a book there when he said he did. He told me about it in the presence of Mr Greff’s Clerk.
Q – 553 – Why do you say it would be useful to other people.
A – It would be useful to people who deal in land. It contained the names of every customer that ive had had for the last four or five years.
Q 554 – Where are your estate books themselves.
A – We have not got them we have two portions of the estate books but one portion is missing.
Q – 555 – What portion is that.
A – The portion which deals with the Central Park and Knightswick Estate that is missing the copies with the

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Original of that section are gone.
Q 556 – Which do you say is the one that EGGLETON lost.
A – The last person who had the books was EGGLETON.
Q 557 – What did he have.
A – The original and the copies.
Q 558 – Why did he have both.
A – He had them for an action which was in court.
Q 559 – Why did he have the two.
A – He had the two, I do not know why they were acquired but for some purpose and then he brought away from Mr Greffs office three copies of the books two of which arrived safely but one has never appeared.
Q 560 – You told me first now that Mr Greff never had that book.
A – What book are you speaking of.
Q 561 – The summarised book.
A – I am speaking of the copies now, Mr GREFF had the copies.
Q562 – He never had the originals.
A – I do not know. I think his clerk denies it. Mr EGGLETON told me himself that he took the books in a parcel and gave them to Mr GREFF’S Clerk and that he went over to Mr GREFF on the following day because the books were wanted there was another action on and that book I have not come across yet. I made enquiries at the London office and I asked Mr EGGLETON why he had not sent the books on, Oh he said I left them

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On Saturday morning, I left them with Mr GREFFs clerk.
Q 563 – Well, now we have heard that story I ask you have you that book now.
A – No I have not seen it since it left Mr EGGLETONs hands. I know nothing of it.
Q 564 – Has your son this book.
A – No
Q 565 – Has he ever had it.
A – He has never had it. He has not got a single document belonging to my estate, books or papers.
Q 566 – I want you just to look at this book Mr Hester. Is that a book which you call an estate book (Handling the same).
A – This would be a summary, this is not the estate book, this is not my estate book.
Q 567 – This is not your estate book.
A – No
Q 568 – Now that came from Mr RUSS.
A – Yes, that is a similar book, these are the payments that Mr RUSS has received. Any payments that Mr RUSS received would be in this book.
Q 569 – Did you keep an estate book as well as that.
A – I cannot say that I kept it so well.
Q 570 – I do not mean in so good a manner but did you keep an estate book yourself in addition to this.

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A – This would be an estate book.
Q 571 – You told me just now that it was not, you told me it was a similar book.
A – A similar one to this would be the same you would understand this is what I should call an estate book.
Q 572 – That is what you would call an estate book.
A – Yes.
Q 573 – That estate book was kept by Mr RUSS was it not
A – This one was but not mine
Q 574 – Did you keep any book for the same estates as are included in that book.
A – Yes
Q 575 – Where is that book.
A – That is the book that is missing. Copies of part of it we have. Copies of part of it are in hand Mr Clarke’s portion at the present time but one portion dealing with this estate is missing.
Q 576 – Are these copies that you refer to of the greater part of the book or only a small portion.
A – The greater part, but these matters of Knightswick estate and Central Park Estate are missing.
Q 577 – These entries there, are those entries made by Mr RUSS of his transactions or are they entries of your transactions, that is to say did Mr RUSS receive all these moneys or did you receive some

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Of them
A – I should receive what is called “less deposit”. There was a deposit made in almost all cases and I should have collected them.
Q 578 – Did you collect any of the instalments as well.
A – Yes, occasionally I collected the instalments, we should collect what money we could.
Q 579 – Yes, did you report to Mr RUSS
A – When the conveyances were required by various people who had paid us we should ask Mr RUSS to prepare the conveyances and then he would debit me with my amount of whatever we had received from those people. We might have received £10 or £20 or £30 and then at the end of the month whenever he thought that there would be a mortgage drawn for the amount that I had received during that time, it might be a month or a week, or two or three months, there was no specified time.
Q 580 – That is to say that you would give him a mortgage for the money which you had collected.
A – Yes on these properties and gave him security for it.
Q 581 – Is that what you mean when you say that RUSS laid out the money again.
A – No, it would not be that the money would be lent out again which

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he collected, say he collected £100 and an estate required £100 he used to say I have got £100 in on such and such an estate I will advance it on a fresh security.

Q 582 – Did he give you credit for the money which you collected on the existing original charge.
A – He still kept it alive.
Q 583 – No, I mean would he strike it out of the mortgage.
A – No, the mortgage would be conveyed to me.
Q 584 – I am not talking about this money laid out now but the money which was collected contrary to his arrangement with you. Did you give a mortgage for that.
A – Yes.
Q 585 – Where would that be shown
A – Not in that book his mortgage book would show it not this book, this is what I should call an estate book which had to do with the estate.
Q 586 – It is a book you ought to have kept.
A – We kept a similar book to this except as regards the payments made to RUSS + Co., we did not know them.
Q 587 – Did he keep this book on your account.
A – No, he kept it for himself or the difference clerks of his did, he kept it on his own behalf.

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Q 588 – I want to be quite clear about this, all the receipts which are entered in this book are receipts of instalments representing money received by Mr RUSS.
A – Yes
Q 589 – All of them.
A – Yes, with one exception less deposits that means that I should have it.
Q 590 – That is money that you received
A – Yes, the money I received is really entered here.
Q 591 – I know the instalments are entered there, but I want to know whether you received them or he.
A – Those entered in that book he should receive.
Q 592 – I want to know whether you did not go to Mr RUSS and say that you have collected so much money including less money received. Did you enter in this book those instalments as money received.
A – I must have done so.
Q 593 – I must ask you to tell me if you can.
A – I think it is quite clear that if he gave me a conveyance and took on another property that Mr RUSS would show that those items were paid up but I do not know whether he would make a note saying “paid to Hester” or not. I have every confidence in Mr RUSS and thoroughly trusted him and I have not the slightest

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Cause to mistrust him now.
Q 594 – It is not a question of trust it is a question of what the trustee is going to get out of the estate.
A – Yes I cannot say as to that.
Q 595 – Now the mortgages that you gave to Mr RUSS were they all in respect of money advanced by him and paid over to you or were some of them in respect to costs or what.
A – Some would be for money paid over I should say some of them would be costs and some of the mortgages would be where he paid loans for me.
Q 596 – That was really money paid for you.
A – Yes
Q 597 – Did he ever deliver any bill of costs to you.
A – Yes, he did there were several of them.
Q 598 – Have you handed them over to the trustee.
A – Everything I had possession of is in the hands of the trustee.
Q 599 – Is there no bill of costs except those which you have handed over to the trustee
A – There is no bill of costs except those.
Q 600 – Did you ever have a settlement up with Mr RUSS about costs.
A – Yes, occasionally I should have if there was a large transaction.
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to be gone into we should settle what commission I should pay him and what money he was to receive for the money laid out. It might be an advance made by one party would be paying off the mortgage of another and the money advanced to me is dealt with in the balance sheets.

Q 601 – Do you know that Mr RUSS claims that there is £17,000 due upon his mortgages and that £17,000 more is due in favour of his clients.
A – Yes, I agree to that
Q 602 – You agree to that
A – Yes
Q 603 – That is the fact
A – Yes, I ascertain that before the bankruptcy I was very well aware of all Mr RUSS’s affairs he kept me acquainted with them.
Q 604 – You have checked these figures and agree that something like that figure is the amount.
A – Yes
Q 605 – Now with reference to this [appreviate ]? Profit and loss account prepared last July that does not purport to be a balance sheet does it it did not show the liabilities at all.
A – Well, I do not understand balance sheets I thought it was.
Q 606 – It shows you sales during the three years and on the other hand it shows the amount of the land you are selling.

IMAGE-0022
A – Yes
Q 607 – But there is no liability in respect of the land which you are under contract to purchase.
A – No, because they were not entitled to it then.
Q 608 – That is what you say
A – Yes
Q 609 – This is not a proper statement of your position
A – That is the money received by me
Q 610 – Your accountant calls it an approximate profit and loss account, he agrees that it is not a balance sheet.
A – Well, I do not understand it
Q 611 – It does not show the liabilities in respect of the lands not resold (Handling an account to the debtor)
A – Yes, you will see cost of land dealt with in sale.
Q 612 – That means the price of lands which had not been resold
A – Yes
Q 613 – It does not include the cost of those lands not re sold
A – No
Q 614 – They are not included there
A – No
Q 615 – How much do you owe in respect of land you got from MR CLARKE
A – The statement would show it to Mr CLARKE, I owed £17,000 I think that is contracts that is in lands never purchased.
Q 616 – And there is further money for advances they are not shown there
A – No.

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Q 617 – This does not include your liabilities on Mortgage.
A – No
Q 618 – Under the profit and loss account or balance sheet you show a net profit of £46,000
A – Yes
Q 619 – Have you ever received that net profit
A – No
Q 620 – Have you ever received any portion of it.
A – I cannot tell you what money I have received exactly because it has been paid through the solicitor’s hands. It does not purport to show what money was received, it allows £7,000 for possible cancellations.
Q 621 – You told me last time that more than more than half this money had been received.
A – I should think so, but I cannot tell you because the solicitor’s account of what they have received has not been rendered yet.
Q 622 – During last year, before the bankruptcy didn’t you receive anything substantial in respect of sales.
A – Yes, I should think so.
Q 623 – Did you receive any instalments
A – Oh Lots
Q 624 – Hundreds or thousands or what
A – I cannot tell you from memory really, last year is shown there you might see that (the document was produced and handed to the learned
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Council) often will see there the amount of money received last year. I have given Mr CARTER a copy of that. It is taken from the books perhaps you can see it there.

Q 625 – According to this you say that you received deposit money and other items showing on the one hand £1874 received and £1658 paid out.
A – Yes
Q – 626 – Did you in addition to that receive moneys from Mr Russ in respect of advances.
A – Yes, no doubt I did.
Q 627 – What became of all those cash receipts.
A – All those payments would be shown in my pass book as money paid in.
Q 628 – If I tell you that the trustee has investigated your pass book and has found that whilst in the last few years your receipts ?ly have amounted to £100,000 only £20,000 has gone through your bank would[sic]. Would that be correct.
A – you are speaking of the amounts that I received from Mr Russ during last year or whoever found the money.
Q 629 – Yes, where can you show what there was and what you did with it.
A – The pass book will show the greater part of the money received

IMG_0025

From Mr Russ in Cash

Q 630 – The trustee informs me it does not – that only a fifth went through.
A – That is part of the time. You say £20,000 out of £100,000 You quite understand that is because the solicitors would deal with the money not shown in my book. You say that the trustee said that I should have received £100,000 and it only shows £6,000.
Q 631 – No you show £99,000. Where is that taken from.
A – That is taken from the books.
Q 632 – What books
A – Some of them I believe are here in the hands of the trustees. At least I saw them here last time. I know they were at Canvey.
Q 633 – Now this shows part of the payments during 1904 which book contains them I want you to identify the book and tell me what it is is it a cash book or what kind of book.
A – In the different books it would show the amount of money received by me but I cannot show you the amount of money received by Mr Russ because of his account not being rendered.

Q 634 – I am not talking about Mr Russ but your receipts and payments. Are these sheets of paper which you handed over to the trustee (Handing)
A – Yes, I believe they are some of them.

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Q 635 – You think they are some of them. They relate to 1894.
A – Yes

Q 636 – Now where did you get the particulars from which are put on those sheets.
A – I see this has come from Fenchurch Street.

Q 637 – Never mind where they have come from, those are what you have given to the trustee.
A – This would come from the receipt book showing money paid out. This is the Fenchurch Street account which I have not seen I have not seen that.

Q 638 – Now I want to know whether you got the information from which you put down on those sheets
A – From the various books now in the hands of Mr Carter.
Q 639 – Mr Carter says that the information is not in the books.
A – I think it is all there, he may not find it in the proper order but all this is got out from the books.
Q 640 – Now here again is another [rough?] statement of figures purporting to show expenses and receipts cash and prepared by Mr Eggleton.
A – Yes
Q 641 – Who put that there is that your writing (pointing)
A – No, it is Mr Carter or his clerk’s I judge
Q 642 – Still it is from information you gave them
A – Yes

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Q 643 – Where did Eggleton get the information from
A – From the books and papers in the hands of Mr Carter.
Q 644 – Mr Carter is a more expert accountant than Mr Eggleton and he cannot find it and he suggests that there are other books which contain this information which you have not handed over.
A – I have not a single book in my possession except three copies which Mr Carter has allowed me to keep. He has allowed me to keep them to keep in touch with the Estate at the present time and I have not a single book or document except those which have been handed over to Mr Carter. I have no reason to keep anything back and he has everything that I have.
Q 645 – That he does not agree with
Q 646 – The Registrar – Who is Mr Eggleton. What is his connection with your Bank – [???]
A – Originally he was my clerk sir and then my son had him for the London part of the business. He was there at the time of the Bankruptcy and think but in so much as I paid him I suppose he was my clerk still.
Q 647 – Mr Whinney : What part did he do. Was he clerk or a bookkeeper.
A He was supposed to keep the books and that one book that is missing.

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Was specifically kept in his charge. Some of the books he had charge of
Q 648 – Where are those books
A – Mr Carter has them. I have seen them in his possession.
Q 649 – Oh yes, what you call the London cash book Mr Carter has that but it does not contain these figures.
A – That I do not know.
Q 650 – You think Mr Eggleton lost the book which contains these figures
A I should think not, I think that they are in the London account books.
Q 651 – They are not in the account books
A – I have seen the London account books with similar figures in them audited by Mr Hayward up to last October when he found they were perfectly correct I think.
Q 652 – Mr Hayward audited these books
A – Yes he was paid for auditing them.
Q 653 – Will you allow me to read this note “From all sources of information open to me” etc etc (Reading to the words) fairly states the amount This is the balance sheet you produce and there is not a single figure there I suggest but what was put in by Mr Howard from information given to him.
A – That is to do with Canvey not London.
Q 654 – What is the difference
A – A very great deal all the books in London Mr Haywood had to balance

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Up and I believe you will find they are correct up to the last balance sheet.
Q 655 – What did the London business do.
A – They took money and paid out money and what money they took is in their books
Q 656 – That is only telling me that the London office did the London work.
A – Yes
Q 657 – Did it control all the expenses of Canvey island.
A – No, it controlled the principal part of the auction work my son is an auctioneer and he looked after the auction work for me and all the money he took in the way of deposit or instalments was accounted for in that office. I think the last audit was in December last and you will find it correct.
Q 658 – May I take it then that the instalments and deposits received by you were received by you in the London office through your son.
A – Some of it would be and some would be received in Canvey.
Q 659 – And that you kept no record of it.
A – Oh yes, we did. If we ever received any money from people it ought to be on one of our printed receipts and it would show on the fly leaf of the receipt book what the money was received for.
Q 660 – Do you mean to tell me that your

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Books of account consisted only of the counterfoil of receipts as regards these items.
A – Up to the last time the books were put in order by Mr Hayward they would be entered into the particular books, but until the next visit they would not be entered.
Q 661 – What books are you speaking of
A – Canvey
Q 662 – You tell me that Mr Howard audited the London books.
A – He did both. I am not an accountant myself, I do not understand books, I am lost in them.
Q 663 – You do not even keep details of your expenditure and the Trustee is not in a position to know whether the cash which passed through your hands has gone into your property or not.
A – There would be evidence in my documents and papers of nearly every farthing that I have received and it could be made up with very little trouble.
Q 664 – You are talking about receipts, I am talking about expenses.
A – The receipts would be half that money that the official receiver read out.
Q 665 The OR : The receipts received from people
A – Yes, you are speaking of my payments all the money that people received from me would be on the files and the majority of it would be entered into the different books that are down there.

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Q 667 – Mr Whinney : That is to say the receipts by you of money is very largely evidenced through the counterfoils by the money you have given to other people.
A – Yes
Q 668 – Of which the receipts were kept on the file.
A – Yes
Q 669 – But there are no books to show it.
A – There are to a certain extent, but they are not written up to date. Evidence of every single Farthing could be found if it is required though it will take time to go into it
Q 670 – I agree it will take time. Last time you were asked about the Norton Furnishing Company and you told me that they had paid you a certain amount of money for furniture from the Winter Gardens and Bungalows.
A – Yes
Q 671 – What Bungalows are they
A – It is all gone, they sold it by auction.
Q 672 – The Norton Furnishing Company
A – Yes
Q 673 – Have you any particulars of the sales.
A – Not of their sales the only particulars I have of the transaction are in the receipts. I gae them receipts for what they paid.
Q 674 – Am I to take it that the only evidence of the money paid by the

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Norton Furnishing Company to you when they bought that furniture is the counterfoil of receipts given by you.
A – No, they could prove it by their cheque which they paid over to me.
Q 675 – If it was paid by cheque
A – Everything is paid by cheque
Q 676 – I ask you amongst your papers is there any evidence
A – I do not think there is. I do not think there would be no.
Q 677 – You are quite sure you did give them receipts
A – Oh yes
Q 678 – Why is there not evidence on the counterfoils
A – Because the receipts that I gave them are not on the printed forms.
Q 679 – That is how you get out of it
A – The receipts given to customers in the purchase of land which passes through the clerk’s hands, all these receipts were given on the printed form.
Q – 680 – But as regards this transaction between you and your son.
A – It would not be on a printed form. Only the money which came from the land transactions, to do with the land.
Q 681 – Now are you not aware that the trustee has been asking you for an inventory and the receipts for some

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Time but the information has not been forthcoming
A – Copies of those receipts he had
Q 682 – But he wants the original
A – The Trustee has only asked me for an inventory of what may be left there certain furniture which was at Canvey, he has that. He has not asked me for a copy of everything that was sold.
Q 683 – The Trustee thought that he asked you for it but you may not have understood what he wanted. What he wanted was the full particulars of that transaction between you and your son last November.
A – He only asked me to let me have an inventory and things in my own charge those things which were not taken away which were left for me to dispose of. He gave me the opportunity of carrying on the Winter Gardens at Canvey and they are things that I would have disposed of with the Winter Gardens
Q 684 – With the exception of the receipt is there any document showing the transaction between you and the Norton Furnishing Company.
A – I do not remember any more than with regard to other people I gave receipts to.
Q 685 – I want to know whether the sale to the Norton Furnishing Company included 100 barrels of cement on the property there.

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A – No it did not there was a distrain[seize – in order to pay something] put in for rates and the auctioneer there sold the cement to the highest bidder and the Norton Furnishing Company being the highest bidders they bought it. You cannot dispute the legality of that.
Q 686 – When was that
A – Last November or December
Q 687 – Did the auctioneer distrain on this 100 barrels
A – Yes, and on a great deal of other materials and sold them at auction
Q 688 – Did he distrain on anything else beside the cement
A – Yes, on all the materials that were there.
Q 689 – You spoke just now about you being the person to deal with the Winter Gardens to whom do the Winter Gardens belong.
A – The freehold of the Winter Gardens belong to the Central Park Estates Company.
Q 690 – Yes, subject to the mortgages I think you told me last time.
A – Subject to mortgages
Q 691 – What about the leasehold interest
A – The leasehold interest has been in the possession of the mortgagee for the last two years.
Q 692 – In whose favour was the lease
A – The lease was granted to Mr Scott he was one of my auctioneers
Q 693 – When you say one of your auctioneers
A – I mean for land selling

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Q 694 – Do you mean an auctioneer in your own office
A – No not in my office, he sold land for us.
Q 695 – Who is Mr Roberts
A – Mr Roberts was the caterer at Southend
Q 696 – And was not Mr Roberts used as your nominee by you in this matter
A – Not in any way whatever. Mr Roberts agreed to buy some land and I financed him, that is how I came to have the deeds as the mortgage.
Q 697 – What land was that he agreed to buy
A – I think it will simplify the matter if I allow the Trustee to have this paper as the question has cropped u he will see the circumstances there and I think it will explain the matter as between Mr Roberts and myself (The document was handed to the learned counsel)
Q 698 – Yes what property he was to pay £1,035
A – Yes
Q 699 – And Mr Roberts by this agreement agreed to assign all this property to you for financing him.
A- Yes
Q 700 – He seems to have assured it to Mr Scott
A – It was to me really he was my nominee in that case. He was a nominee.
Q 701 – Do you say that Mr Scott was your nominee
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A – In some cases not in all
Q 702 – Where do you find anything in this document about assigning to you or your nominee
A – This assigns to me does it not
Q 703 – Yes
A – I could not do it in my name if I wanted to sell as I was the freeholder of the premises it was not wise for me to take a lease.
Q 704 – Keep to the leasehold interest at present I am dealing with the leasehold interest which Mr Roberts held. He agreed to assign to you.
A Yes or my nominee
Q 705 – Do you say that Scott purchased from you
A – Mr Scott did not purchase from me only in this way. He did not pay me any money but he took a transfer by way of mortgage and I took a mortgage for the whole of the purchase money from Mr Scott.
Q 706 – You were the purchaser from Roberts
A – Yes Just so
Q 707 – And you say that you did not sell to Scott. How could you take a mortgage for the purchase money from him
A – Well because Mr Scott took over the property.
Q 708 – You told me that Mr Scott did not purchase the property. Did he take it over for nothing.
A – He took it over by way of mortgage it was done because I was

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The freeholder I could not hold the leasehold interest.
Q 709 – Now we are getting it. As you were the freeholder you could not take the leasehold interest in your own name
A – No, it was not wise.
Q 710 – I agree therefore you sold to Mr Scott
A – I found a purchaser
Q 711 – You said just now that he did not purchase from you
A – I tried to explain it, the way he purchased it
Q 712 – I put it to you that he was a mere nominee that he did not purchase it from you and that this document by which he purported to give you a mortgage is fictitious
A – It is not fictitious. I had to take a charge over the property for whatever was due from Mr Roberts. I had to hold a charge on the property to pay me and in that way I secured the moneys due to me on the property by Mr Scott whether it was £100 or £150 or whatever may be.
Q 713 – Was the original transaction with Mr Roberts of the same character
A – No you see by that paper that it is not so you see certain moneys advanced
Q 714 – Mr Roberts gave you a mortgage in the first instance of the same character as Mr Scotts
A – No

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Q 715 – You swear it was not so
A – I say there was some advances and he gave a mortgage for it he had consideration for it. He may have taken it up in land you know. You see that he has taken up a lot of land. It is a perfectly bona Fide transaction and straight forward.
Q 716 – I appreciate the transaction certainly but what the legal result may be is another thing, that is all I have to ask sir.

Examination by Mr Harker
Q 717 – Who was the owner of the Winter Gardens in December 1904
A – The Central Parks Estate Company
Q 718 – Who authorised the sale of materials on December 15th
A – I authorised it myself it was my property there.
Q 719 – I think you were at Canvey in the Swiss Bungalow last Whit Monday were you not.
A – I may have been there tell me what you want to know.
Q 720 – Were you there
A – I do not know if you have any thing else to ask me perhaps it may bring it to me
Q 721 – Did you have Mr Lewin call upon you
A – Yes, I saw Mr Lewin on Whit Monday at Canvey Island I think
Q 722 – You had some books you have

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Stated a little while ago. Did those books contain the addresses of the purchasers of property at Canvey Island
A – Yes
Q 723 – Did you refer to one of the books on that occasion
A – I suspect I showed him a copy of the book that I had
Q 724 – Containing the names and addresses
A – containing some names and addresses
Q 725 – And money paid
A – Quite so
Q 726 – Is that the book which is missing
A – No
Q 727 Mr Bennett : I should like to ask the debtor some questions too
Q 728 – The Registrar : Are you a creditor
A – No sir I am proxy for a creditor
Q 729 – The Registrar – I am afraid that will not do. Have you a solicitor Mr Hester
A – No
Q 730 – Is there anything you wish to add
A – No
Q 731 – The Registrar – The Examination is concluded